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Topic ClosedNew Comp for enthusiast! Want to order today/tomor

Post Date: 2010-12-14

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bullet Posted: 14 Dec 2010 at 11:04pm
Raptors are great drives, I have a few, but price-wise now that ssds are out, it does not make much sense, but they are good drive, just no longer worth the price asked.

@Synth3tikMessiah, thx, honestly as far as patience go, when you build a complicated build like this and need to change/upgrade parts to make it stable and best, then you have no choice but to keep relax, otherwise lol, like you said, one would drive it there, lol walk it there even But DS has been great, they have thrown lot of free stuff my way to make up for their parts, I don't have one bad thing to say about them, some of the time it took was because things would not fit or I wanted to upgrade things, for exmaple this last time we upgraded the 4 x 295 to 4 x 480, so all of that takes time, or the push/pull I wanted to upgrade to, those kind of things are on me

good luck with this pc I think 3 x 570 is the way to go here, put the money you are saving toward other things, like better or more rads/fans and etc.

Edited by DST4ME - 14 Dec 2010 at 11:05pm
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bullet Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 1:18am
AwesomeAwesomeAwesomeAwesome right on.
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bullet Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 3:02pm
Totally agree with DST, if the 600GB G3's were out I wouldnt have ordered the Raptor.....but I can swap the Raptor out later for the SSD.
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 6:37am
Originally posted by Dragoonseal

VelociRaptors are crap. They are crap for the price, and they are not the the top of the line item that you have to pay a premium for, ergo you are paying the ridiculous premium for marketing.

When you have options that perform virtually identically but cost 5 times less (7200RPM HDD), options that perform better and cost less (hybrid drive), and options that perform 100 times better and only cost slightly more (SSDs), then seriously they are just crap. And those are just the simple alternatives, if you wanted to get a little creative you could just get a cheap PCIe RAID card with some onboard cache and bam, any drive you use on it performs vastly better than a VR (same idea behind a hybrid drive, but DRAM instead of SSD NAND, which is like 30+ times faster).

There are far too many other options that are either cheaper, perform better, or both, VR's just get marketed better. Stop trying to justify to yourself your purchase of VRs. So you wasted money on them, so what? Live and learn. Stop trying to recommend such a terrible storage option to other people.
 
Originally posted by Dragoonseal

Sure it is, there are just different levels of crap. While I'm glad it doesn't cost 5 times more than similar offerings and fail more often, its ridiculous price premium still puts it well into the crap category.

I'm not here to argue the definition of crap, I'm just letting people know VRs are a Really Dumb Idea™.
 
Don't say something is crap when in reality it has its purpose at a premium.  I use them for reliable storage.  Is it a lot?  Sure, but then again the data stored on those drives is worth a lot too.
 
You go out and buy a cheapo RAID (aka software raid) card along with consumer grade drives, you are asking for nothing but problems.  Any decent RAID card will start at around $300, and good raid cards start around $600, which isn't exactly cheap.  Enterprise drives (which should be used with any RAID) will cost easily $100 over the consumer, so this is not even a viable option.
 
Why not inform the person about what the drive actually does do, why it has this premium, what the performance is versus solid states, what purposes it might serve, rather than stating "IT'S CRAP AND YOU SHOULDN'T BUY IT", without giving a real solid reason.
 
Keep in mind it has much smaller platters than the larger drives, so the transfer rate does not fall off the cliff towards the edge of the platter, along with the 10000RPM motor, which gives faster access times than standard drives.
 
I highly recommend VelociRaptors if you're looking for reliable storage with a respectable increase in speed over standard drives. 
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 11:38am
Im%20with%20Stupid  Thank you!
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 1:51pm
If he's going with a 3x monitor setup though eyefinity might be a better choice because of bevel correction and stuff it offers.  But either way the GTX 570 would be a great choice.  
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 2:01pm
Well now that I actually read more I see that he wants to go all out haha, yeah 580 vs. 6970 at 5760x1080 is still debatable, again there aren't many benchmarks at that resolution and from what I've seen the 6970 has pulled ahead at them.  But don't take that as a final word or anything because there isn't much to pull from as far as testing is conerned at resolution.  But, don't be suprised if the 6970 pulls ahead at those resolutions, because ATI's main focus is eyefinity and Idk how much the 2gb of ram help with those resolutions but it is there for a reason lol.  So I know you said he doesn't care how much he spends, but he could save some money by going trifire 6970's.  At lower resolutions I would recommend the gtx 580, but at these extreme resolutions there hasn't been enough to show which card is superior but the few benchmarks I've seen have shown the 6970 pulling ahead. 
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 2:13pm
what is bevel correction?
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 2:20pm
My bad I meant to put bezel***.  Lol Bezel correction helps you adjust the screen to compensate for this bezels, also it helps you adjust the aspect ratios for games that don't fully support the high resolutions.
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 2:27pm
Thats interesting but wouldn't it not be needed since if it displays on each screen it wouldn't go into the bezel. Just seems weird to me.

oh lol i meant to say bezel too i knew what u were saying but i was just typing stupid.
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 2:34pm
The velociraptors are a poor value, want faster access times, and zero slow down in performance as the drives fill up, for way less cost than a velociraptor? buy 1Tb drives and short stoke them..plain and simple ..Hahaha.
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 3:11pm
Thank you ward! Very interesting, I'm going to forward what you said to my bro, he already placed the order, but DS is too awesome not to change things mid build, they've done it plenty before (god i love this company).

Hey Justin! Long time no see. Can you explain to me what you mean by stoking a 1tb drive? I've never heard of this "stoking" procedure... only the toking procedure ;) hahah Awesome
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 3:17pm
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 3:33pm
Thanks, i just read it! Very interesting, i'll have to try it soon. 
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 3:57pm
Our pleasure and good luck
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by WardTheSteak

ble, again there aren't many benchmarks at that resolution and from what I've seen the 6970 has pulled ahead at them.  


Can you provide some links?  Everything I've read puts the 6970 equal to the GTX 570 and 14% to 20% behind the GTX 580.


Edited by MagiK - 18 Dec 2010 at 4:53pm
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 6:24pm
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews/1084/pg17/xfx-radeon-6970-and-radeon-6950-graphics-card-review-crossfire-eyefinity-vs-sli.html
This is making me mad, this right here is the only comparison of the cards at "5760x1080" I can find.  Remember I'm not talking 1920x1080 or 2560x1200 which in 3 of the hardware canucks benchmarks the 6970 bested the 580.  I am talking 5760x1080 which is the resolution this guy's brother, and another dude ordering will be playing at.  I'm not saying with exact certainty that the 6970 is the clear winner at this resolution, there just isn't enough benchmarks being done at this resolution to tell and its annoying.  I do know this though the 6970 is cheaper, and that 2gb of ram is going to help with these extreme resolutions, plus eyefinity has a lot of benefits for these setups.  I just wish there was more benchmarking done so I could know better when giving people advice on purchases. :S
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 6:31pm
From what I see, uless I missed something (which I always do), the tri sli 580 is beating the 6970 crysis and bbc2.
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 6:35pm
Yes, but that is not 5760x1080. That is the only resolution I am concerned with at the moment, as it directly applies to this guy's setup.

Edited by WardTheSteak - 18 Dec 2010 at 6:35pm
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bullet Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by venom

Originally posted by Dragoonseal

VelociRaptors are crap. They are crap for the price, and they are not the the top of the line item that you have to pay a premium for, ergo you are paying the ridiculous premium for marketing.

When you have options that perform virtually identically but cost 5 times less (7200RPM HDD), options that perform better and cost less (hybrid drive), and options that perform 100 times better and only cost slightly more (SSDs), then seriously they are just crap. And those are just the simple alternatives, if you wanted to get a little creative you could just get a cheap PCIe RAID card with some onboard cache and bam, any drive you use on it performs vastly better than a VR (same idea behind a hybrid drive, but DRAM instead of SSD NAND, which is like 30+ times faster).

There are far too many other options that are either cheaper, perform better, or both, VR's just get marketed better. Stop trying to justify to yourself your purchase of VRs. So you wasted money on them, so what? Live and learn. Stop trying to recommend such a terrible storage option to other people.
 
Originally posted by Dragoonseal

Sure it is, there are just different levels of crap. While I'm glad it doesn't cost 5 times more than similar offerings and fail more often, its ridiculous price premium still puts it well into the crap category.

I'm not here to argue the definition of crap, I'm just letting people know VRs are a Really Dumb Idea™.
 
Don't say something is crap when in reality it has its purpose at a premium.  I use them for reliable storage.  Is it a lot?  Sure, but then again the data stored on those drives is worth a lot too.
 
You go out and buy a cheapo RAID (aka software raid) card along with consumer grade drives, you are asking for nothing but problems.  Any decent RAID card will start at around $300, and good raid cards start around $600, which isn't exactly cheap.  Enterprise drives (which should be used with any RAID) will cost easily $100 over the consumer, so this is not even a viable option.
 
Why not inform the person about what the drive actually does do, why it has this premium, what the performance is versus solid states, what purposes it might serve, rather than stating "IT'S CRAP AND YOU SHOULDN'T BUY IT", without giving a real solid reason.
 
Keep in mind it has much smaller platters than the larger drives, so the transfer rate does not fall off the cliff towards the edge of the platter, along with the 10000RPM motor, which gives faster access times than standard drives.
 
I highly recommend VelociRaptors if you're looking for reliable storage with a respectable increase in speed over standard drives.

I don't inform people about what VRs do, why it costs so much, and what their performance versus SSDs are? Hi, you must be new around here. My name is Dragoonseal, nice to meet you. If you are up for some reading you may wish to visit my profile and click the "Find Members Posts" link and search for the term "VelociRaptors." In these posts you may find many riveting bits of eye opening information, such as "VelociRaptors are crap," and "you shouldn't buy them."

MagiK and I have had conversations about VRs a few times, so I'm not going to give a whole page long explanation every time I have another one with him, I'll just give the basics to give unaware consumers a heads up.

Reliable storage? Perhaps you were under the impression that they were not, in fact, mechanical HDDs with moving parts and a platter spinning at 10,000 revolutions per minute? And that a 600GB VR costs $280 ($340 from DS)? If you
want reliable storage you back up your data, no questions asked. How many 7200RPM 600GB HDDs do you estimate one could get with $280 (340)? Five, six? I'd call five backups pretty reliable.

I'm not calling them crap because they aren't a normally functional HDD, I'm calling them crap because they're a complete sucker's buy. They're a hold over from when they were one of the few mainstream options for faster I/O (Raptors) so you had to pay a premium, but now they no longer hold any sort of performance advantage. They're marketed to enthusiasts like they're the fastest things in the world yet the sad fact is every model but the 600GB are all now slower than modern 7200RPM HDDs, and the 600GB model only manages to claw ahead of them by a barely measurable 5%. And no a small platter is not an advantage, it means you're stuck with less dense outer area to read from and the quicker you fill a platter with data, meaning the quicker you have fragmentation and a read head that is forced to skip all over the drive to grab data.

So yes, I inform people about what the drive actually does, why it has a premium price because it is marketed to suckers, how it has performance that is no less than an order of magnitude lower versus SSDs, and the purposes it serves as a sucker buy. If you don't like my definition of crap and feel this is giving the wrong impression I could change it if you want instead to something more like "It's a complete waste of money that is marketed to suckers and you shouldn't buy it." if you would like. I don't dig the whole caps lock idea though.
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 10:09am
Actually Enterprise class drives ARE more reliable than consumer versions and many of them spin at 10k or 15k rpm's.  If you are going to go with HDD's and want the best reliability then you have to go Enterprise class drives.  The VR is such a drive, it is not for people that have small budgets or need to be super budget aware, but there is a reason for the higher cost.  Consumer grade parts are by definition cheaper = made more cheaply = less reliable and/or lower performing.  Calling the VR crap is at best misinformation.  I know you don't think of it that way but there it is.   I do agree with you that for the majority of buyers here VR's probably are not a good fit but for those who can afford them or want them....they should NOT be told they are buying crap.
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by WardTheSteak


Yes, but that is not 5760x1080. That is the only resolution I am concerned with at the moment, as it directly applies to this guy's setup.


I'm talking about 5760x1080, they have I think like 3 games listed, and 2 out of 3 the 580 tri sli wins.
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by MagiK

Actually Enterprise class drives ARE more reliable than consumer versions and many of them spin at 10k or 15k rpm's.  If you are going to go with HDD's and want the best reliability then you have to go Enterprise class drives.

You missed my point, that being they are still mechanical HDDs with moving parts, one at 10,000RPMs, and can and do still have hardware failure just like every other mechanical HDD. They may or may not be more sturdy than others, but they are not exempt or immune, if you want reliable storage you still have to make backups, regardless.

I do agree with you that for the majority of buyers here VR's probably are not a good fit but for those who can afford them or want them....they should NOT be told they are buying crap.

It's not about being about to afford them, that's what you never seem to get, these are not the king of the crop top end item that you have to pay a premium for. There is nothing a VR does best, so no matter what reason you choose it for you are wasting your money. You want reliability, there are much better and cheaper options, you want performance, there are much better and cheaper options, you want bragging rights, there are much better and cheaper options.

They have an insane premium because they are marketed well, that's it. These are not the 980X or 2300MHz CAS 7 memory of storage solutions, there are too many other better storage solutions for them to be a sane choice, regardless of budget.

Sad
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 2:03pm
Guys what drive has vr's seek? Not counting ssds.

Edited by DST4ME - 19 Dec 2010 at 2:04pm
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by DST4ME

Guys what drive has vr's seek? Not counting ssds.

Short stroked 7200RPM HDD, hybrid drives, SAS/15000RPM drives, anything hooked up to a PCIe controller with cache... just off the top of my head.

Not counting SSDs, of course.
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 3:07pm
Ok wait, the short stroke is in raid, not a single drive, forget teh controller and etc, just a straight up single HDD on sata, so that leaves us with sas.

can you show me a 600GB sas please?
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 3:14pm
What about short stroked VR's?  Chilling
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 3:23pm
My question is what single sata drive has vr's seektime? otherwise short stroke anything is great just not my cup of tea for home.
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by DST4ME

Originally posted by WardTheSteak


Yes, but that is not 5760x1080. That is the only resolution I am concerned with at the moment, as it directly applies to this guy's setup.


I'm talking about 5760x1080, they have I think like 3 games listed, and 2 out of 3 the 580 tri sli wins.


If you go back and look all those other games are done at 1920x1080, not 5760x1080. 
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 4:38pm
NO boss I'm taking about 5760x1080, can you link me to the ones you think 6970 won please? maybe I missed a couple.

Originally posted by DST4ME

From what I see, uless I missed something (which I always do), the tri sli 580 is beating the 6970 crysis and bbc2.


my above comment was regarding 5760x1080

Edited by DST4ME - 19 Dec 2010 at 4:40pm
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 4:41pm
Trust me I have scoured the internet for comparrison benchmarks at 5760x1080, and this is the only one I could find.  Notice Crysis is at 1920x1080 not 5760x1080, there is only one benchmark with the 5760x1080 comparrison.
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews/1084/pg17/xfx-radeon-6970-and-radeon-6950-graphics-card-review-crossfire-eyefinity-vs-sli.html
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 4:43pm
go to the next page crysis is at 5760x1080

also bbc2 is under it. there are 3 benchmarks at that res.

never mind the f1 benchmark is with dual gpus, so there is only crysis and bbc2 and both 580 wins.

Edited by DST4ME - 19 Dec 2010 at 4:46pm
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 4:47pm
Ahh I stand corrected lol.  However, in BBC2 the 580 lost, so that's two in favor of the 6970.  Then again as discussed earlier, we know not the trustworthiness of this site. 
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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 4:48pm




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bullet Posted: 19 Dec 2010 at 4:48pm
Heh, all the stuff that was mentioned as faster alternatives cost ridiculously more than a VelociRaptor.

I will agree, they don't come anywhere close to an SSD.  But simply dismissing them as crap is misinformation.  Even if they are marketed well, that isn't the point here. 

Consumer grade drives are not as reliable and have a shorter lifespan than Enterprise drives.  I'm not sure how relevant the mechanical argument is as an SSD is prone to failure as well.

Western Digital VelociRaptor WD6000BLHX 600GB 10000 RPM:
"Killer speed – SATA 6 Gb/s interface and 32 MB cache enhance the next generation 10,000 RPM WD VelociRaptor making it up to 15% faster than the award-winning previous generation."  Apparently they don't claim to be faster than anything but the previous generation of raptors.

Rock-solid reliability – Designed and manufactured to mission-critical enterprise-class standards to provide enterprise reliability in high duty cycle environments. With 1.4 million hours MTBF, these drives have the highest available reliability rating on a high capacity SATA drive.

Intel SSDSA2MH080G2K5:

MTBF: 1.2 Million Hours
Western Digital RE4 WD5003ABYX 500GB 7200 RPM:

MTBF: 1.2 Million Hours

I wasn't able to find a MTBF for any consumer drive.

As for informing others, why not instead say the VelociRaptor does not have near the speed of an SSD, however they are good for reliable storage.  Or just leave at it speed, if that's what they are looking for.

"2300MHz CAS 7 memory" is a huge waste of cash, no gain in anything but synthetic benchmarks.

You may feel you have wasted your money (if you had bought one), but I sure don't.


Edited by venom - 19 Dec 2010 at 4:52pm
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