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Post Date: 2008-12-05

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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Dec 2008 at 12:47am
what is your OS?
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  Quote venom Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Dec 2008 at 3:07am
Ah it makes me laugh when I read threads like this.  None of the programs in existence will find, or remove a well written virus/bot/trojan.  Rootkits, programming flaws, secret API calls, windows holes/flaws, encryption, packing, binding, will thwart any of these programs to detect or remove the virus/bot/trojan.

Even a well known virus that has been out for 3+ years can be packed, encrypted, or binded to be fully undetectable to any anti-virus program available.  Adding a rootkit to that will decrease the chances of it being detected in the future while maintaining its presence in the system. 

Rootkits are probably the most interesting when added to malware, as it can change the data stream, whether it be from the RAM, HDD, or Network, to either tell the firewall or anti-virus that what it is looking for doesn't exist, or give it garbage.

Bottom line, don't waste your money or your resources for a 20% chance it might detect something.


Edited by venom - 05 Dec 2008 at 3:10am
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Dec 2008 at 4:20am
Good AVs check for rootkits, nod32, spysweeper all check for rootkits, granted if somebody was out to get you, you would have a hard time keeping them out but for regular security most AV's have been doing fine, the people that know what they are doing and use common sense have had a 99% to 100% sussess staying clean.


To each his own.



Edited by DST4ME - 05 Dec 2008 at 4:23am
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  Quote Kliebor2 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 05 Dec 2008 at 6:09am
Yes here DST is quite right, Root Kits are quite detectable, Symantec and Trend both regularly issue updates thwarting rootkits and detect unusual system activity associated with hidden processes.
 
I know some people think that there are only black hat hackers, but there are plenty of white hats, equally if not more skilled with just as many tricks up their sleeves to protect as the bad guys have to thwart protection.
 
Nothing is perfect but the thing about the internet is it is not just 1 good guy, it is many all working and in the end sharing knowledge of discoveries, thus why there are constant scan engine and fingerprint detection files distributed to anti-virus utilities.
 
If the situation really was as you say Venom there would be a huge outcry from many sources and there just is not... why you ask, because like most wars, the conflict is essentially an arms race, both sides developing better weapons to combat the other, neither really having any huge advantage so the battle remains a stalemate with occasional battles won on each side to make things interesting for the rest of us.
 
To go without anti-virus/anti spyware is foolish and will come back to bite even the most careful of users. Do not let people like Venom dissuade you from running a well reviewed security suite. Based on my reserach when I was rebuking DST's points I would hardily reccomend both Norton Internet Security 2009 and the latest eSet. They both have excellent histories of detection and removal of malware not matched by any other package out there. 
 
Dave Ouch


Edited by Kliebor2 - 05 Dec 2008 at 1:26pm
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  Quote venom Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 25 Dec 2008 at 3:33am
So, if I sent you a virus right now, would your AV detect it?  Are you 100% confident that it would?

If so, let me know and ill send one over.
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  Quote Kliebor2 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 25 Dec 2008 at 6:00pm
Don't be foolish Venom, Anti-Virus is part of being a safe user of the Internet.

The other part is ignoring boastful foolish people that think they know everything and throw around idiotic challenges.

Regards and Merry Christmas,

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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 25 Dec 2008 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by venom

So, if I sent you a virus right now, would your AV detect it?  Are you 100% confident that it would?If so, let me know and ill send one over.


post a link to your virus I will let you know if nod32 will let me download it or not
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  Quote skyR Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 25 Dec 2008 at 6:33pm
Anti-virus only protects you from being a dumbass. For anyone with common sense, it's more of a hassle than anything.
The only thing that keeps me wishing on a wishing star.
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  Quote Kliebor2 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 25 Dec 2008 at 8:45pm
Opinions are everywhere.

Mine is backed by smart computer users including a whole lot of security researchers.

Sky's and Venom's are short sighted, you can claim to the ends of the earth you never caught a virus on your PC and never ran anti-virus.

Wahoo for you, you are not smart, you are lucky, there is nothing like luck, until the day it fails you.

I would rather have luck, intelligence and a healthy dose of armor, the more defenses the better. especially when modern anti-virus runs without impacting hardware performance in any noticeable way at all...

YMMV

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  Quote EdH63 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 21 Feb 2009 at 11:19am
Chiming in here quite late, but I thought I'd throw down the obvious point.  Anti Virus programs, free or not, are simply insurance.  Just as you buy insurance on a car or a home, you insure your software and hardware against attacks by purchasing, or not, Anti Virus programs.

When you've reduced it to that thick syrup in the bottom of the pan it comes down to peace of mind of the user.  Whether your anti virus works or not isn't the point, rather that the user is content in "feeling" that he or she is protected.  Granted, your chances are far greater that you'll use your firewall or anti virus program more often than you would claim on your home owners insurance, but the point is that it is something to insure your investment, whether you use it or not, and it is market driven to get people to buy into the concept that you "need" it.

Do you really "need" it?  That question is going to be answered by logical and factual evidence by the architects and engineers of the software, the columnists that review the software and by the basic and human need of man to feel secure within his own realm of understanding. 

Bottom line, we purchase or download for free these kinds of things because it makes us "feel" more secure.  Whether we really are more secure is irrelevant, but most people are driven by emotional intelligence and mass marketers understand this. Do anti virus marketers build software to truly protect you?  I believe they do.  They're some pretty fine programs out there to pick and choose from.  Are we more secure because of them?  Probable.  Does it meet a personal need of my own in the process?  Bingo!     

Edited by EdH63 - 21 Feb 2009 at 11:20am
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 21 Feb 2009 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by EdH63


Anti Virus programs, free or not, are simply insurance.  Just as you buy insurance on a car or a home, you insure your software and hardware against attacks by purchasing, or not, Anti Virus programs.When you've reduced it to that thick syrup in the bottom of the pan it comes down to peace of mind of the user.  Whether your anti virus works or not isn't the point, rather that the user is content in "feeling" that he or she is protected.     


well I completely disagree, first off its not insurance, specially with free software, the free anti viruses, tell you themselves that they take no responsibility for the apps protection, so if something does happen they are not covering anything.

second you said
Whether your anti virus works or not isn't the point, rather that the user is content in "feeling" that he or she is protected.


correct me if I'm wrong but what is the point of a false sense of security? isn't that the worst? to think you are covered when you are not?

the point of anti virus is to help you keep your PC clean and all don't do the same job, just because you feel secure does not mean you are.

what is a point of a seatbelt that make you feel secure but in an accident, its so flimsy that you might as well not be wearing one.

so in short, its not insurance, cause it does not guarantee to keep you clean, and they don't do that because its simply not possible, you can have an anti virus and still get infected. Also false sense of security is the worst of all.

I have a freeware site and even I who loves and promotes freeware, tell people that freeware security apps should only be used for testing purposes.


and before people start lining up saying I have freeware and my PC is clean, let me just tell you, for every single one of you that has a clean PC with freeware security, there are 10 people that have gotten viruses with freeware and never even knew it.

I think I just helped somebody a few weeks ago here with freeware anti virus that still got a virus.

the last and main point is this, no matter what anti virus you use, if you don't use common sense, if you don't scan things you download before you open them, you are not protected at all.

The best anti virus is sitting on your neck.


Edited by DST4ME - 21 Feb 2009 at 5:03pm
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  Quote EdH63 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 21 Feb 2009 at 6:43pm
I think you missed my point, DST4ME.  I'm advocating using something to secure your PC from the scourge that does exist however, many people will purchase security programs simply because it makes them feel safer as opposed to not having one at all.  As you said, does it mean they are 100% safe?  No. Let me offer a different word and say it's "assurance" instead.  I'm not saying that any software company would be on the hook as if you were insured by them because you bought their program... of course not. What I'm saying is that people by/use these programs to bring a self assured sense about them because it helps protect their investment, much like insurance does when applying it to a car or a home.  Because you have insurance doesn't mean something isn't going to happen.  But you are hoping you'll never need to use it.

Car dealers are my customers nationwide and in sales meetings, when I'm training finance and sales personnel to sell my products, I train on positive up-selling.  I other words, you wouldn't sell a car to a potential buyer by stating that, "eventhough this car has been crash tested and has a five star safety crash rating you could still suffer a hideous and horrible death if you were to get into an accident even with your seatbelt on".  The customer probably would reconsider your product at that point.

My point is that customers are not purchasing from emotional intelligence and will use these programs whether they're 100% convinced it will stop something from happening or not.  It absolutely does brings a fasle sense of security to the forefront which, in turn, triggers the impulse to need it.  Why by it if it brings a false sense of security?  Well, we really don't know it's false in the moment, do we?  Something is going to happen somewhere down the line, and by having the assurance that there is a program that is holding the front line, they will "feel" safer.  That doesn't mean your world won't cave in around you when your supposed software messiah allows the hacker through the door.  The willingness to purchase or use is greatly based, more than we realize, on the basic and emotional impulses of the buyer.  Depending on our past experiences, our desperation and how we've been sold, we will make a choice regardless if the program actually does what it says it will do to the extent we hope it will.

I'm not advocating one program over another rather, simply stating the common thread in the human buying habit.  People buy on impulse and emotion and not so much the logic in the program architecture.  You and I may purchase that way, but the majority is lead differently and that's why there are Best Buy sales people... DOH!  Just kidding all you BB people.  I just had to throw that out there.     






Edited by EdH63 - 21 Feb 2009 at 6:53pm
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 21 Feb 2009 at 7:06pm
I'm not missing the point boss,I think you are missing the point, the whole point of security apps is tho protect you, not to give you false sense of security.

it is up to each person to take responsibility of their own life and educate themselves and make sure they don't have a false sense of security and are truly safe.

nobody here is responsible for my actions , so if I'm stupid and I don't check things I buy then I paying the price for it down the line.





Edited by DST4ME - 21 Feb 2009 at 7:06pm
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  Quote <8) slunK parade Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 21 Feb 2009 at 7:21pm
Norton2009 works superbly for me, even has a gaming feature that you enable and it uses less of your computers resources
i would recommend Hijack this only for stubborn bots that other programs wont get rid of
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  Quote EdH63 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 21 Feb 2009 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by DST4ME

I'm not missing the point boss,I think you are missing the point, the whole point of security apps is tho protect you, not to give you false sense of security.

it is up to each person to take responsibility of their own life and educate themselves and make sure they don't have a false sense of security and are truly safe.

nobody here is responsible for my actions , so if I'm stupid and I don't check things I buy then I paying the price for it down the line.





Yes, you have missed my point.  I'll now bow out as not to errantly argue a moot point.
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 21 Feb 2009 at 8:20pm
Just because I don't agree, it doesnot mean that I missed your point, I get your point, I don't agree with it. I never agree with making choiced by how you feel about it.

Edited by DST4ME - 21 Feb 2009 at 8:21pm
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  Quote Bonoharvey Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 30 Apr 2009 at 1:57pm

I purchased Avira for the year anyone have any thoughts about that software?   Sidenote: DST I just purchased my 2x 275's they'll be here tomorrow. Thanks again for saving me over 200 dollars.

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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 30 Apr 2009 at 6:21pm
My pleasure, avira is good but like nod32 best, but remember what ever you download, always scan it first then open it and you will be OK with most AVs
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  Quote dark20011 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 May 2009 at 11:58am
Hey DST you ever use NOD32 Smart Security? im planning on getting NOD32 AV but havent decided on my internet security yet
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 May 2009 at 5:06pm
I like to use my own firewall but once I go vista 64bit I am going with smart security.

I was one of the people who tested the Smart Security when it first came out and was in beta. its pretty good
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  Quote tman5890 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 May 2009 at 7:02pm
I use Smart Security and it's great. Quiet scans and full protection!
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 01 May 2009 at 7:11pm
well Smart Security's av is nod32 so that part of it is top notch, its the firewall of it that is new
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  Quote Landaulet Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 23 Jul 2009 at 2:58pm
NIS 2009 suprisingly isnt that bad.
I used it for mainly the integration for firefox.
And its Identify Safe feature, also storing my logins.

I have ESET Smart Security now
and can honestly say I noticed a
slight increase in startup and system performance.

I'll have to try NIS 2010 when its out of beta
I wont mess with beta's until there official.
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  Quote JoeVideo Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Aug 2009 at 4:33am
Free Online Virus Scanning Tools:
(upload and check, before you open)
 
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 06 Aug 2009 at 11:35am
no need for free online scanners, ESET offers a full 30 day trial that is better and more trustworthy IMO then any online scanner.
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  Quote B5GkarNarn Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 1:41pm

I currently have Zone Alarm Security Suite 2009 & have had almost no problems.  My new gaming PC from DS will need to run Zone Alarm Extreme Security 2010 & I'm curious to know what you think about it?

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  Quote EdH63 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 2:20pm
I used to use ZA for a few years.  I stopped because it was very protocol heavy.  It also leaves a large footprint in your system.  ZA is a very good product, but you have to get it fine tuned or it will be a major headache when trying to game.   
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  Quote DST4ME Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 2:55pm
ZA is not as good as eset, eset is lighter and faster.
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  Quote B5GkarNarn Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by EdH63

I used to use ZA for a few years.  I stopped because it was very protocol heavy.  It also leaves a large footprint in your system.  ZA is a very good product, but you have to get it fine tuned or it will be a major headache when trying to game.   
What security software do you use now?
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  Quote EdH63 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 10:31pm
I'm using what Harleyman is using... Spyware Doctor by PC Tools (PAID VERSION).  Very good all-in-one program and I haven't had any problems with it thus far.  I also use Spy Sweeper (PAID VERSION).
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  Quote B5GkarNarn Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 15 Oct 2009 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by EdH63

I'm using what Harleyman is using... Spyware Doctor by PC Tools (PAID VERSION).  Very good all-in-one program and I haven't had any problems with it thus far.  I also use Spy Sweeper (PAID VERSION).
Thank you, EdH63.  Does this mean that you're using the Windows firewall because I don't think that Spyware Doctor & Spy Sweeper have their own firewall? 
Also, what antivirus are you using? 
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  Quote EdH63 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 15 Oct 2009 at 4:21pm
Yes, I am using Windows Firewall.  It is more than sufficient.  Spyware Doctor is, as I said, an all-in-one.  It provides your antivirus and a program called "IntelliGuard".  IntelliGuard offers you a very flexible settings platform to monitor your programs so that everything is taken care of.  Go to their site and read-up on it.  It's comprehensive enough to do the job, yet non-invasive where it goes protocol crazy.

Spy Sweeper is a program that has some redundant features but monitors a little differently. I use, as others will too, a variety of different programs that will overlap to some degree in their functionality.  This is because different programs will catch different things, so it's good to be redundant when it comes to these types of programs.  I will run some more than others, but they all get used.

I think one thing we want to keep in mind when it comes to protecting our investments is that there is less of a need to protect yourself from hackers as there is a need to protect yourselves from spyware, viruses and accumulated junk files and bad registry entries.  These are the things that most commonly occur that will corrupt your system.

If you take a program like Zone Alarm, which I had, and you look at the data file produced in the area of that program that allows you to review all the "attacks" against your computer, it can look like the freaking world is trying to get into your system.  However, that is the misconception.  The reality is firewall programs like ZA pick-up and register every hit that taps your IP port just passing by.  In other words, every time someone surfs by your IP port going somewhere else, ZA will register that as an attack and file it in the data center.  It is not an "attack", rather your FW registering the active hit in the port itself as the user moves by the line.  Custom firewalls can very expensive and generally unnecessary unless you are truly protecting yourself form hackers.  If you are protecting yourself against hackers then you won't be Joe User Americana.

Windows FW is more than sufficient.


Edited by EdH63 - 15 Oct 2009 at 4:39pm
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  Quote B5GkarNarn Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 15 Oct 2009 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by EdH63

Yes, I am using Windows Firewall.  It is more than sufficient.  Spyware Doctor is, as I said, an all-in-one.  It provides your antivirus and a program called "IntelliGuard".  IntelliGuard offers you a very flexible settings platform to monitor your programs so that everything is taken care of.  Go to their site and read-up on it.  It's comprehensive enough to do the job, yet non-invasive where it goes protocol crazy.

Spy Sweeper is a program that has some redundant features but monitors a little differently. I use, as others will too, a variety of different programs that will overlap to some degree in their functionality.  This is because different programs will catch different things, so it's good to be redundant when it comes to these types of programs.  I will run some more than others, but they all get used.

I think one thing we want to keep in mind when it comes to protecting our investments is that there is less of a need to protect yourself from hackers as there is a need to protect yourselves from spyware, viruses and accumulated junk files and bad registry entries.  These are the things that most commonly occur that will corrupt your system.

If you take a program like Zone Alarm, which I had, and you look at the data file produced in the area of that program that allows you to review all the "attacks" against your computer, it can look like the freaking world is trying to get into your system.  However, that is the misconception.  The reality is firewall programs like ZA pick-up and register every hit that taps your IP port just passing by.  In other words, every time someone surfs by your IP port going somewhere else, ZA will register that as an attack and file it in the data center.  It is not an "attack", rather your FW registering the active hit in the port itself as the user moves by the line.  Custom firewalls can very expensive and generally unnecessary unless you are truly protecting yourself form hackers.  If you are protecting yourself against hackers then you won't be Joe User Americana.

Windows FW is more than sufficient.
I greatly appreciate your explanation about ZA's firewall.  Thank you very much, Ed.
One of the things that pisses me off about ZoneAlarm is that it is known not to respond well when you run other antispyware software.  I would like to be able to run multiple antispyware programs so I'm definitely going to look at other options besides ZoneAlarm. 
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  Quote Psimon Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 15 Oct 2009 at 7:43pm
Yeah, I had Zonealarm also. They were doing well until Vista came out, then went downhill (bugs, customer support, and other issues . . . whether that's their fault or Vista's, meh, take your pick).
 
Then I had Online Armor, which was not bad, but I think they're a bit of a small company. They didn't have a Vista version so I dropped them also.
 
So far (about 2 years) i've had few issues . . . actually, none . . with Vista's stock FW. It asks me about programs I want to run through it, and I assume opens the relevant ports to do so. I don't use an IM, which is a big offender in letting unwanted crap through, and I only use web-based email.
 
I agree with EdH63, it's sufficient. I don't run a business from my computer, I wouldn't lose money if all my data was lost (although I'm pretty careful about backing up stuff that's be a real pain to recover). I'd be pretty steamed if a virus ate it all, but in an hour I'd calm down, scrub the HDD, and reinstall.


Edited by Psimon - 15 Oct 2009 at 7:44pm
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EdH63 View Drop Down
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  Quote EdH63 Quote  Post ReplyReply bullet Posted: 15 Oct 2009 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by B5GkarNarn

Originally posted by EdH63

Yes, I am using Windows Firewall.  It is more than sufficient.  Spyware Doctor is, as I said, an all-in-one.  It provides your antivirus and a program called "IntelliGuard".  IntelliGuard offers you a very flexible settings platform to monitor your programs so that everything is taken care of.  Go to their site and read-up on it.  It's comprehensive enough to do the job, yet non-invasive where it goes protocol crazy.

Spy Sweeper is a program that has some redundant features but monitors a little differently. I use, as others will too, a variety of different programs that will overlap to some degree in their functionality.  This is because different programs will catch different things, so it's good to be redundant when it comes to these types of programs.  I will run some more than others, but they all get used.

I think one thing we want to keep in mind when it comes to protecting our investments is that there is less of a need to protect yourself from hackers as there is a need to protect yourselves from spyware, viruses and accumulated junk files and bad registry entries.  These are the things that most commonly occur that will corrupt your system.

If you take a program like Zone Alarm, which I had, and you look at the data file produced in the area of that program that allows you to review all the "attacks" against your computer, it can look like the freaking world is trying to get into your system.  However, that is the misconception.  The reality is firewall programs like ZA pick-up and register every hit that taps your IP port just passing by.  In other words, every time someone surfs by your IP port going somewhere else, ZA will register that as an attack and file it in the data center.  It is not an "attack", rather your FW registering the active hit in the port itself as the user moves by the line.  Custom firewalls can very expensive and generally unnecessary unless you are truly protecting yourself form hackers.  If you are protecting yourself against hackers then you won't be Joe User Americana.

Windows FW is more than sufficient.
I greatly appreciate your explanation about ZA's firewall.  Thank you very much, Ed.
One of the things that pisses me off about ZoneAlarm is that it is known not to respond well when you run other antispyware software.  I would like to be able to run multiple antispyware programs so I'm definitely going to look at other options besides ZoneAlarm. 


Let me suggest not having more than one antivirus running at once.  Running multiple antivirus programs can cause conflicts.  You can run multiple spyware programs and not have that conflict though.  There are many sufficient and worthy programs out there, but like Harleyman and DST have mentioned many times on these forums before, get a paid version above all.  There are many to pick from and it can get quite confusing but, remember this, they all do relatively the same things.  Some have better reviews than others and that is what many will go by.  As DST promotes, eset has a great 30 day try-buy and is highly rated as one of the best.  You'll just need to pick one and be happy with the choice.  I believe there has been enough talk about a handful of these programs concertedly for you to land on one very good choice. 


Edited by EdH63 - 15 Oct 2009 at 9:09pm
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